benicek: (Default)
[personal profile] benicek

So I just cast my vote in the EU referendum. I could see my wife's name on the electoral roll neatly crossed out. EU citizens are not allowed to vote in the EU referendum. No, but the bewildered Australian I met on the train the other day, who has a UK passport he inherited from his dad, was telling me that he's only been here three months and they sent him a polling card. He found it embarrassing.

 

I am sick of this whole thing. The entire Leave campaign is driven by a racist subtext. Half of my family is disenfranchised even though she is a legal resident, UK tax-payer, UK state employee, mother of a UK citizen and married to a UK citizen. Even in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum EU citizens were allowed to vote. 

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23/6/16 08:29 (UTC)
cmcmck: (Default)
Posted by [personal profile] cmcmck
Given my own ancestral background (complex to say the least) it amazes me how well the 'outs' have managed to make me feel like an outsider and I was born and bred here as were my parents and grandparents. :o(

My Scottish husband didn't get a vote in that one as he wasn't living in Scotland

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23/6/16 09:36 (UTC)

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23/6/16 10:19 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] gonzo21.livejournal.com
It's shameful.
(deleted comment)

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23/6/16 15:00 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] petrusplancius.livejournal.com
The qualifications for voting in the referendum are broadly the same as for a general election, xenophobia doesn't enter into it; and to accuse everyone of who wants to vote to leave (apparently well over 40%) of xenophobia/racism, either directly or by association, is merely a useful tactic for the opposing side. That shows the level to which the debate has descended in this wretched referendum, in which no one - I mean in the Remain/Leave campaigns - seems to be willing to engage in balanced and open-minded debate, accepting that people of the opposing view can hold it with good faith

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23/6/16 15:02 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] elsewhereangel.livejournal.com
I likely should not have said anything, given the wildly distorted and underreported nature of Brexit across the pond. My apologies, deletion forthcoming.

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23/6/16 15:43 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] petrusplancius.livejournal.com
Nothing to apologize for; I was just trying to point out that the debate has become very polarized, and that one needs to be a bit sceptical about the claims that one side makes against the other in the present heated atmosphere! There have been undoubted racist/xenophobic subtones to some of the campaign literature issued by one of the Leave campaigns (associated with UKIP), but it is assuredly unfair to infer from that - or to try to suggest on that basis, as many on the other side have - that the Leave campaign as a whole can be characterised in terms. Many decent people will be voting for Leave for creditable reasons.

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23/6/16 17:35 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] elsewhereangel.livejournal.com
I'm always leery to say much on international politics because I feel like I'm too far removed to get any clear sense of what is really nuance and what essential.

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24/6/16 19:35 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] benicek.livejournal.com
Xenophobia was the underlying motivation for every Brexiter I spoke to when I was campaigning on the street. It was also the sole front-page topic of every issue of the Daily Express for months beforehand. Immigration and benefits were the sole features of Cameron's 'new deal' with the EU. Clearly he didn't consider democratic reform of the EU to be of any political advantage to him. So, no, I don't think the official Leave campaign was racist but I believe that the press agenda-setting and political game-playing that lent it most of its force was xenophobic in nature.

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25/6/16 13:21 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] petrusplancius.livejournal.com
I take your point, but I think one must acknowledge that many Remain voters had less dubious motivations. At the moment I am doing my best not to try not to think about all of this!

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25/6/16 13:49 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] benicek.livejournal.com
I accept that, and I've been conversing with you online for enough years to know that there isn't a vindictive, xenophobic bone in your body. Moreover, I can see that the EU has evolved in a non-democratic manner which can never possibly engage properly with citizens and, worse still, has deliberately crucified the weakest citizens of the poorest Euro-zone countries it was supposed to buffer. If it doesn't become a proper accountable federal democracy it is going to incite a nationalist backlash across the continent. However, entering into a Brexit trajectory with no Brexit plan was utter folly, and the decades during which any British government could have lifted a finger to push for transparency and democracy in the EU rather than just clawing back refunds were truly wasted.

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24/6/16 05:09 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] majolika.livejournal.com
I'm so sorry. Sad day.

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25/6/16 13:46 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] leopold-paula-b.livejournal.com
Agreed. (And I used to be against Scotland's leaving the UK. Now, I'm all for a new referendum, and I also think, if possible, Northern Ireland should leave the "United" Kingdom and join the rest of Ireland. Admittedly, not very original notion. If only London could leave the rest of England and Wales. I often wish that Vienna could exist without the rest of Austria, because the results of our elections are always so much better then the rest of the country.)

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25/6/16 13:54 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] benicek.livejournal.com
And the entire point of the EU was that local political diversity could co-exist without creating borders which would be economically and socially crippling.

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25/6/16 13:58 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] benicek.livejournal.com
And we use the term 'leave' so much that we're actually starting to believe that we can literally leave. That a territory can sail away like a ship. Scotland will never leave Britain and Britain will never leave Europe. We are stuck here until the end of time.

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27/6/16 13:11 (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] leopold-paula-b.livejournal.com
And the UK is stuck with the EU as a business partner as well. There'll have to be rules and contracts. I really don't think that the UK is going to win back its independence that way. We're all mutually interdependent, no matter what.